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Video: The Virus of Faith

October 8, 2010

A few decades ago, it was unthinkable to express non-Catholic views. If you practice yoga and meditation, the CWL die hards call you a satanist or an anti-christ. If you had Protestant friends – you needed to be “saved”. On the other side of the fence, my Protestant friends wanted to save me from the “Harlot of Rome”. Then the Jehohah witnesses or the INC come knocking at your door after mass. Then comes Velarde, Quiboloy, and the biggest bully of them all the Roman Catholic Church and its local franchise – the CBCP and its retail outlets – the RCC parishes which dot the archipelago.

The Root of ALL Evil?

Pinoy catholics (and their equally rabid towelheads) – seem to think they have a monopoly of the truth – or what they present as truth anyway. As if Catholic morality is the only way of life. Here’s the news buster – RCC ain’t the only morality in town.

With the recent national debates on Jueteng and the RHB, there is a constant name dropping on a return to Catholic morality as the solution to economic problems. Morality does provide a filter through which we view life and make us do the things that we do. However, such morality should guide us in our search for truth and not evade it. It should go beyond the shallow emotions of fear and guilt but it should reach into our deeper capacity for reason, compassion, and a deep understanding of the dystopian world brought into life by irrational beliefs.

As more Filipinos discover that there are alternative belief and value systems which provide a more liberating and enlightening frameworks than just going to an edifice on Sunday, strutting around like a peacock, mumbling a few words here and there, taking a swig of an expensive piece of wafer and consider oneself as free from eternal damnation – and ready to sin again – after all one has a blanket forgiveness from sins because a dude died on the cross two millenia ago. Right.

As a response to the Philppines’ three hundred years of catholic indoctrination, I am posting this provocative video documentary by Richard Dawkins – that takes a diametrically opposite view of faith and religious morality.

SYNOPSIS

The Root of All Evil?, later retitled The God Delusion, is a television documentary written and presented by Richard Dawkins in which he argues that humanity would be better off without religion or belief in God.

The documentary was first broadcast in January 2006, in the form of two 45-minute episodes (excluding advertisement breaks), on Channel 4 in the UK.

Dawkins has said that the title The Root of All Evil? was not his preferred choice, but that Channel 4 had insisted on it to create controversy.[1] The sole concession from the producers on the title was the addition of the question mark. Dawkins has stated that the notion of anything being the root of all evil is ridiculous.[2] Dawkins’ book The God Delusion, released in September 2006, goes on to examine the topics raised in the documentary in greater detail. The documentary was rebroadcast on the More4 channel on the 25th August 2010 under the title of The God Delusion.[3]

In “The Virus of Faith”, Dawkins opines that the moral framework of religions is warped, and argues against the religious indoctrination of children. The title of this episode comes from The Selfish Gene, in which Dawkins discussed the concept of memes.

Sectarian education

Dawkins discusses what he considers as the divisive influence of sectarian education, with children segregated and labelled by their religion. He describes the Hasidic Jewish community of North London as cloistered away from external influences such as television, with children attending exclusive religious schools. He questions Rabbi Herschel Gluck to find if their culture allows children to access scientific ideas.

Gluck believes that it is important for a minority group to have a space in which to learn and express their culture and beliefs. Dawkins states that he would prefer traditions taught without imposing demonstrable falsehoods. Gluck emphasizes that although the students believe that God created the world in six literal days and have studied evolution in school, the majority will not believe in it when they leave the school. Gluck contrasts the tradition of Judaism with scientists who “have their tradition”. Dawkins’s facial expression at this point seems to suggest he is taken aback[citation needed] at the assertion that science is based solely on “tradition”. Gluck then goes on to contend that it’s called the “theory of evolution” rather than the “law of evolution”.[6] When Dawkins points out that the term is used in a technical sense and describes evolution as a fact, Gluck suggests he’s a “fundamentalist believer”. However, when Dawkins asks Gluck how many children from his school have grown up believing in evolution, Gluck is lost for words, and eventually admits that most of them probably don’t.

Dawkins expresses concern about increasing religious influence in British schools with over 7,000 faith schools already and the government encouraging more, so over half of the new City Academies are expected to be sponsored by religious organizations. He says that the most worrying development is a new wave of private Evangelical schools that have adopted the American Baptist Accelerated Christian Education curriculum, and as an example calls on Phoenix Academy in London.[7] Dawkins is shown around the school by head teacher Adrian Hawkes and remarks on how the teaching material appears to mention God or Jesus on almost every page; such as a reference to Noah’s Ark in a science textbook. Hawkes responds by saying that the stories could have a lot to do with science if you believe in them, and that the science he was taught at school is laughable today. As an example, he mentions that he was taught that the moon came from the Earth’s ocean and was “somehow flung out into space” during the early years of the Earth’s life. Dawkins says that it should have been presented as a strong current theory.[8] Another lesson talks about AIDS as being the “wages of sin”, so Dawkins inquires whether this might not be mixing health education with moralistic preaching. Hawkes responds that without a law-giver, “Why is rape wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong?” and that if people believe they can get away with committing bad deeds then they will tend to do them. Dawkins responds to this claim by asking Hawkes if the only reason he doesn’t do these things is that he’s frightened of God and subsequently suggests that this attitude is characteristic of the warped morality that religion tends to instill in people.

Religion as a virus

Next, Dawkins discusses specifically the idea of religion seen as a virus in the sense of a meme. He begins by explaining how a child is genetically programmed to believe without questioning the word of authority figures, especially parents – the evolutionary imperative being that no child would survive by adopting a sceptical attitude towards everything their elders said. But this same imperative, he claims, leaves children open to “infection” by religion.

Dawkins meets the psychologist Jill Mytton who suffered an abusive religious upbringing in the Exclusive Brethren[9] – she now helps to rehabilitate similarly affected children. Mytton explains how, for a child, images of hell fire are in no sense metaphorical, but instead inspire real terror. She portrays her own childhood as one “dominated by fear”. When pressed by Dawkins to describe the realities of Hell, Mytton hesitates, explaining that the images of eternal damnation which she absorbed as a child still have the power to affect her now.

Then Dawkins visits Pastor Keenan Roberts, who has been running the Hell House Outreach program for 15 years, producing theatre shows aimed at giving children of twelve or older an indelible impression that “sin destroys”. We see rehearsal scenes depicting doctors forcing an abortion on a woman despite her changing her mind, and a lesbian gay marriage ceremony presided over by Satan in which the women swear to “never believe that you are normal” and Satan cites First Corinthians 6 as God saying homosexuality equals sin. Roberts absolutely and unapologetically believes the scriptures about sin, and when Dawkins questions this basis for morality, replies that it is a faith issue.

Biblical morality

Next, Dawkins questions whether the Bible really does provide a suitable moral framework, and contends that the texts are of dubious origin and veracity, are internally contradictory and, examined closely, describe a system of morals that any civilised person should find poisonous.[10] He describes the Old Testament as the root of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; and, as example, readings are given of Deuteronomy 13 which instructs believers to kill any friend or family member who favours serving other gods, and Numbers 31 where Moses, angered at the mercy his victorious forces show in taking women and children captive, instructs them to kill all save virgin girls, who are to be taken as slaves: an act Dawkins describes as genocide. Dawkins also questions another story from Judges 19 in which Lot, an old man, offers his maiden daughter out to an angry mob of “wicked men” to be raped and humiliated to save his male guest from being raped by the “wicked men”. In Dawkins’s opinion, the Old Testament God must be “the most unpleasant character in all fiction”.

Dawkins then discusses the New Testament which, at first, he describes as being a huge improvement from the moral viewpoint. But he is repelled by what he calls St Paul’s nasty sadomasochistic doctrine that Jesus had to be hideously tortured and killed so that we might be redeemed – the doctrine of atonement for original sin – and asks “if God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them? Who is God trying to impress?” He says that modern science demonstrates that the alleged perpetrators Adam and Eve never even existed, undermining St Paul’s doctrine.

Dawkins then interviews Michael Bray who interprets the Bible literally – he would like to see capital punishment enforced for the sin of adultery, for instance. Bray was a friend of Paul Hill, who was executed in 2003 for murdering a doctor who performed abortion and the doctor’s escort, James Barrett. Bray defends Hill’s actions and speculates that he is now “doing well” in Heaven. Later, Dawkins converses with his friend Richard Harries, the former Bishop of Oxford and a liberal Anglican. Harries sees the scriptures as texts which should be read in the context of the time they were written, and interpreted in the light of modern insights. Dawkins asks Harries about his attitude towards miracles – does he believe in the Virgin Birth, for instance? It’s not “on a par with” the resurrection, says Harries.

Secular morality

Finally, Dawkins searches for an explanation of morality based upon evolutionary biology, which he considers more hopeful than ancient texts. Together with the evolutionary psychologist Oliver Curry, he discusses the primordial morality to be found among chimpanzees. Curry explains his view that we don’t need religion to explain morality and if anything it simply gets in the way. Instead, he claims, a more convincing explanation is to be found in the concepts of reciprocal altruism and kin selection.

After briefly addressing the rise of secular values, Dawkins goes on to discuss morality with the novelist Ian McEwan. McEwan takes as his starting point the mortality of human life, which he says should naturally lead to a morality based on empathy – one which he claims should confer upon us a clear sense of responsibility for our brief span on earth.

Dawkins finishes by arguing that atheism is not a recipe for despair but just the opposite; rather than viewing life as a trial that must be endured before reaching a mythical hereafter, an atheist sees this life as all we have, and by disclaiming a next life can take more excitement in this one. Atheism, Dawkins concludes, is life-affirming in a way that religion can never be.

(Wikipedia)

****

The Virus of Faith (1/5) – Richard Dawkins

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scarHc8RA0g

[flashvideo filename=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scarHc8RA0g width=300 /]

The Virus of Faith (2/5) – Richard Dawkins

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGOcKzhFmg8

The Virus of Faith (3/5) – Richard Dawkins

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kDpBhskUNE

The Virus of Faith (4/5) – Richard Dawkins

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqwusM_aGDk

The Virus of Faith (5/5) – Richard Dawkins

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-DVb8PHSnA

***

These are interesting times for the Philippines – CBCP, meet Richard Dawkins.

If the Philippines is to think itself out of the paperbag it has trapped itself in – it needs reason not superstitition.

From → Religion, Video

87 Comments
  1. Hyden Toro permalink

    Very interesting and informative article. The CBCP people must read it. Religion is like a double edge sword. If you don’t use it carefully; it will do a lot of harm. if used in a proper way: it will help you evolve to a better Human Being. I have relatives who are members of the Iglesia Ni Kristo. The parents encourage to have their daughters marry non-Iglesia ni Kristo members, in order to increase the membership of their Church. They are all afraid to be “Tiwalag” by their Church. People reading their Holy Books; must use their brains. Because to interpret the Scriptures literally will do you more harm than good. I encourage all to re-examine their faiths. Study other faiths. Do not believe in Hell and the Devil. They don’t exist. They are just tools used by religious leaders, to make their followers behave.😯

  2. Hyden Toro permalink

    Hell is just a state of mind. Heaven is also a state of mind. The Spirit World is real. I prefer to study more of the Eastern Religions. Because their premises are for the improvement of our consciousness. Rather than: fear, bigotry, hate, ignorance, etc…The Devil is only the personification of evil in the Mind. The Devil is greed done by our politicians; deception and lying done by the Aquinos, in order to maintain their ownership of Hacienda Luisita.If a Catholic Priest sexually abuse a child. Did the Devil made him do it? Or he is just satisfying his sexual orientation of pedophilia?:mrgreen:

  3. It would be awesome if Dawkins would go here. No really.

    inb4 media sensationalize Dawkins as a living devil.

  4. Ponse permalink

    Any religion, ideology or belief system that  sacrifices the present for no matter what the price for a reward of a glorious future is flawed and dangerous.  We have a huge gamut ranging to the relatively benign such as the Catholic Church retarding the development of the Philippines by opposing population control to save the souls of Filipinos from everlasting fires of hell to the more extreme types like suicide bombers killing innocents so that they can go to heaven with virgins on their side. 

  5. Enlightened Filipino permalink

    I actually do know that Yoga and TM are not good in the long term. It’s like taking meth or LSD only it’s natural. It’s one of those false promises to godhood that will ultimately destroy the human being. There have been many cases. Yoga is not enlightenment, it’s just a natural high. If you don’t believe in gods, then you should not believe in “Ascended Masters” or so-called “UFOs”. 

    But we do agree upon one thing. Too much of religion and less of a personal relationship with God is just plain hypocrisy. That’s why i believe Atheism is the largest religion in the world, and Richard Dawkins and countless agnostics attests to this.

  6. Zach permalink

    “Atheism is the largest religion in the world, …” You have got to be fucking kidding me. You must actually think that bald is a hair color. How much meth did you have to take to come to this conclusion?

  7. aone permalink

    Richard Dawkins as well as Stephen Hawkings are my two heroes of this decade.

  8. Hyden Toro permalink

    To go boldly where no one has gone before, is a true measure of adventure. If we are afraid to go where we dare to go; because our religions tell us: will end up in Hell, and be with the Devils; or it will do us harm; is not only ridiculous, but stupid. The Human Consciousness is still a field waiting to be explored. It is just on top of your neck. We are still in the Dark Ages, because of these obsolete beliefs from our obsolete religions. Renaissance came out from the Dark Ages. Because men put behind, most of the Church beliefs. It produced: Philosophers, Scientists, great Engineers, Mathematicians,etc…It lead also to the discovery of the New World. Life is an adventure. To learn and discover things is adventure. We must not cuddle in the little corner of our ignorant minds. Because a stupid Priest, or an ignorant Bishop tell us, to do so…😯

  9. Homer permalink

    Thanks for posting this. Despite the film lamenting that this “virus” will continue to be passed-on to future generations, there is some hope in knowing more and more people are waking up to realize that it’s ok to explore and question what they’ve been taught to believe when it doesn’t make any sense. They will also realize that their mental health will start to improve in the process.😉

  10. Ponse permalink

    About Yoga, I disagree, I have been doing Yoga since I’m 25 years old (I’m 60 now). It has done nothing but good for my health, wellness and the meditation it teaches helps me relax and focus. I have as much stamina and resistance then any man 20 years younger then me. It also helped me forge a successful carrer because it taught me how to properly focus my attention on the most essential things in life.

    However I agree, TM is a crock of bull. Even devout Buddhist monks I spoke too tell me that TM is not needed for their enlightenment.  

  11. Ponse permalink

    Oh yeah, I have spent countless hours meditating in my life (I meditate 2 hours a day) and never once went flying in the sky, seeing the future or leaving my body. Goodness, where in the blue blazes these TM crazies get these experiences/ideas?

  12. Mari permalink

    You are obviously a type of (non-catholic) Christian. As “Personal relationship with God” is a quite a Christian mindset. I’m Agnostic but I don’t see what is wrong with people finding pleasure from meditation as it harms no one – I have never seen any one died, lose their love ones or had their lives destroyed from meditation. So some of them believe in imaginary UFOs, or masters from another parallel universe – SO WHAT?  Have you seen these people wipe out civilizations, kill innocents and destroy cultures? These beliefs have been with us for centuries and despite of the fact they have strange to us they are HARMLESS.
     
    On the other hand, Christianity and Islam throughout history have brought large full scale ignorance, suffering and death to countless people. The Inquisition, the suppression of critical thinkers like Galileo,  Crusades, the Holocaust (Yes, the Nazi were Christians and had ties with the CC at the time. Read Mein Kampf, Hitler professes his twisted Christianity several times in the book) various Jihad, the subjugation and destruction of countless cultures  (Look what Spain did to our native culture in the name of Catholicism. Rizal rages about it in his literary works).

    You say that it is the evil heart of human nature but what guides his heart is his core beliefs.   I have yet to see Yogis or Jainists bear arms and strap unbelievers into torture chambers because they do not share the same belief. I bet if FUNDAMENTAL Jainism would spread it would benefit humanity a lot.

  13. Mari permalink

    My apologies, my response above was for Enlightened Filipino. 

  14. Miriam Quiamco permalink

    Great posts here, I agree with Mari, organized religions such as Islam and Christianity, two monotheistic religions have caused so much historical suffering to humanity, having said this though, a lot of the progressive ideas in the modern world have originated in the Christian world.  Perhaps because of the intense human suffering Christianity had caused to the Western world, secularism blossomed into enlightenment to bring forth humanist centered ideas for progress.

  15. Ponse permalink

    @ Miriam

    I respectfully disagree. Saying progressive ideas come from Christian society is like saying that coffee is black because of water. 

  16. Miriam Quiamco permalink

    Progressive ideas like “equality between the sexes”, “basic human rights guarantees”, “civil rights”, etc. have all emanated from the Western world, there may be traces of these in other societies, but in terms of institutionalizing progressive ideas that promote human progress, the Christian world has been at the forefront of these struggles.

  17. Ponse permalink

    I disagree. If you do research, you will find out that many of these concepts do not originate from Christianity.  Equality of the sexes was championed by women’s liberation not Christianity (Women had lower status then men in the Bible), . Equality between all humanity is classic Socrates. Lincoln  who fought for the equal rights of the black man was not very found of Christianity in general. Also remember the South which was once the biggest slave country in the US was also predominantly religious. The founding fathers of the US believed in the separation of religion and state for a very good reason. One could that that the reason why  the West is blessed by progressive liberal ideas because it has a rich history and pedigree of great thinkers: The greek philosophers, the Roman lawmakers, the renaissance thinkers etc.    Most of these great thinkers had to fight close minded organization such as the Catholic Church and went against the ideals of Christianity.   

  18. Miriam Quiamco permalink

    They originated from the secular sector of Christian societies, not in Buddhist, Hindu or Islamic societies.  These great men in history you mentioned were bred in extremely conservative societies, their response to the shackling effects of Christianity was Secularism and Enlightenment.  Not only that they espoused progressive ideas in their writings and speech, they also founded a nation embodying these great ideals.  By the way, the founding fathers of America were men of God, Christians, though they clearly saw the wisdom of the separation of state and church in government.  Ever wonder why newly elected presidents in the U.S. are sworn in with their hands on a bible?

  19. Hyden Toro permalink

    The founding fathers of America, were mostly members of the Free Masons. If you look at the Reverse Side of the U.S. $1 Bill. You will see the features of: Unfinished Pyramid; on top of the Pyramid is: the Eyes of the God, Ra; then, the Latin words: “NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM”, which means: “New World Order.” This is not an Illuminati, conspiracy theory. You get hold of a $1 U.S. Bill. Then, you will understand what I’m talking about. Globalization, anyone?😡

  20. miriam quiamco permalink

    Over 50% of the Founding Fathers of America were Anglican/Episcopalian, at least that’s what their religious affiliations indicated. . .

  21. Hyden Toro permalink

    Research about the Free Masons. There are Filipino Free Mason Members. Definitely, I am not one. I am more of a Free Thinker. The belief of the separation of the Church and the State was a Free Mason belief.😮

  22. Hyden Toro permalink

    You simply is ignorant about Meditation. True Meditation is just listening to our Divine Source, or to God, as most call him. How do you listen to someone speaking? Be still; be attentive of what the other fellow is saying; and keep quiet…If you know how to worry; you know how to Meditate. Worry is Meditating in a Negative Way…😯

  23. John Amend-All permalink

    Morality is now a science and a pretty exciting one at that. See here:

    http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/morality10/morality10_index.html

  24. I read Rizal was a mason, and that was one point that got him in trouble with the local church. I know the RCC in general dislikes the masons.

  25. Hyden Toro permalink

    Jose Rizal was rumored to be a Free Mason. Although, there were rumors, he denied it before his execution. U.S. President George Washington was a no. 33 Free Mason. The highest order in the Free Masonry. So are most of the signers of the U.S. Constitution. Some Filipinos are members of the Free masonry. Free Masonry has great influence on the political development in our world. It will; continue for this century. Josef Stalin of Russia was also a Free Mason😮

  26. Ponse permalink

    Let me reiterate. The West became progressive NOT because of Christianity but because the West was and is a hot bed of great critical thinkers. If you research all the groups and individuals who moved the progress of human civilization forward such as Galileo, the thinkers of the Enlightenment era, the adherents of liberalism (these are the people who fought and spread for democracy and free and fair elections originated)  you will find out that they fought against the close minded dogma of the church and the superstitious thinking of the Christians of that time. 

    Do not discount the contributions of non Christians to humanity for they also made their mark. Ancient Muslims translated the knowledge, science and Philosophy of the Greeks and spread it to the world. The Muslims also preserved these knowledge at the time when the Christians were burning books and poor old women during the middle ages. The Hindi’s taught us the true meaning of non-violence through Gandi (a real undisputed historical figure) and for the first time in the World we discovered that peace can actually a effective tool for social and political change. While Buddhism have been teaching for thousands of years what Western psychology  just discovered in the turn of the century. In fact the more science learn about the workings of the human mind the more the core concepts of Buddhism are proven correct.  The Buddha was also one of the pioneers of critical thinking (you can google his quotes).
     
    I’m sure there are plenty of examples out there of Contributions of NON CHRISTIANs to the improvement of humanity. 

  27. Ponse permalink

    Haha my grammar in the above post is atrocious. My apologies in advance for the mistakes.🙂

  28. Miriam Quiamco permalink

    Why didn’t Hindi, Islamic, Buddhist etc. didn’t become hotbeds of great individual thinkers like the Judea-Christian world?

  29. Ponse permalink

    @ Miriam

    They were in Ancient times, just read up on it. They had great philosophers and thinkers as well. Note, there many factors lead to their downfall these civilization (which also means the decline of the intellectual culture)  and one of them is the Western powers came and colonized them wiping out not only their indigenous culture, knowledge and Wisdom but also killed the locals which includes a lot of the wise folks. Just look at us, Spain not only replaced our local alphabets, language and folk wisdom with Catholic dogma but they also killed and jailed critical thinkers like Rizal and kept us the ordinary folks from acquiring education for hundred of years – thats colonization 101 for you.

    All civilizations in all cultures have the seeds of great intellectual culture but prosperity and time is mandatory for that to germinate. Such a culture is difficult to develop if you are struggling under the yoke of a colonial master or fighting a revolutionary war against a conquering power. Gods, Goons, Gold indeed.

  30. Mari permalink

    West was not the only “hotbed” of progressive thinkers. Perhaps only recently and in certain points in history like the peak of Greek civilization or the Enlightenment era in Europe. Take note that the West also had points in time where ignorance and religious fanaticism governed the minds of the West – the best examples were the dark ages, crusades and the colonization period of Europe etc.

    I agree with Ponse that other civilizations too had their great moments. Unfortunately we are all under the influence and education of the West thus the focus of achievements are focused on Western accomplishments. We do not know the whole story. 

    On the other hand, Christians were not all bad.  John Locke, the father of liberalism was a Christian. Christians also had their share of contributions. However a majority of great western thinkers were non-Christians. 

  31. There is a good debate whether which has better framework for morality, God-based, or secularly-based

    http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-taylor0.html

    Here is one Christian rebuttal for Dawkins http://www.booksandculture.com/articles/2007/marapr/1.21.html

    If Filipinos are to succeed and to owe much to the best contemporary thoughts, Dawkins line of reasoning should be the least of all sources.

    Dawkins used arguments in God’s delusion that make any sophomore student in philosophy class fail.

  32. palebluedot_ permalink

    if you want to prevent the spread of virus, think dengue! you do not kill the virus, you kill those who spread the virus. but since we cannot kill them the way we want them killed, let’s just stop them from making more babies who will just be like them when they reach adult life.

    here’s a suggestion – play devil with them who intends to join the celibate team – shower them with sweet talks that the life outside the convent is more heaven than where they want to be – offer them Adam’s apple.

  33. Mari permalink

    I guess that is one reason priests and nuns are not permitted to multiply. Dosen’t stop them though. Hehe.

    As for Dawkins, the Judaic-Christian-Moslim view of God is a huge target for atheists like him, not because it is so wide spread but also because these are very incomplete and flawed interpretations of God (old Man/Pie/Flying Spagetti monster in the sky). The current popular views of Judaic-Christian religion is tainted with our own personal projection and bias “We are in the image and likeness of God.”  

  34. Mari permalink

    Just a follow up. This is just my personal interpretation of “We are all made in the likeness of God.” I don’t believe that it is false, just that it is an incomplete truth. If there is indeed a God, I would say that all of his creation are expressions of his likeness and not just humans. Yes I know, this is a very Buddhist (We are all one etc) way to look at things but this is the only non-atheist world view that makes sense to me. 

  35. ilaga! permalink

    protestantism and catholicism may share the title of “christian” religion, but the fact remains that these two denominations do not consider themselves similar in anyway, nor does one associate with the other, you could say they are different faiths….
     Ponse, you are wrong, the separation of church and state is a christian doctrine and is championed by the protestants, and i am sorry but your biblical knowledge is inadequate to post false info… all of you owe christianity and the christian God much more than you ever think…  you wouldn’t be here if there was no reformation, you wouldn’t be having this site if it weren’t for the Christian God… the US,Uk, Canada, the scandinavian countries, switzerland, ANZAC, holland, all these great countries have one common denominator, they’re all protestant christians. 
     to the author, you had me going until you bashed protestantism and the existence of God, i hope you won’t regret what you wrote here, i just find it really frustrating when people deny the existence of Christ and then if they’re dying or something really horrible happens they scream “oh my God 10x”  http://antipinoy.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

  36. lancelayton12 permalink

    There’s the saying “to each his own” as they say. If you can say that we can’t deny the existence of God, then people can equally choose deny the Christian god, and say that you can’t deny “-insert gods of other faiths”.

  37. palebluedot_ permalink

    LOL just to be clear…the babies i meant are seminarians or those planning to become priests. if we stop the priests (virus carrier) from increasing in numbers by decreasing them who plans to enter priesthood, we might be able to tame them towards thinking critically and therefore decrease the prevalence of acquiring the virus among FIlipinos…

  38. palebluedot_ permalink

    “these two denominations do not consider themselves similar in anyway, nor does one associate with the other, you could say they are different faiths….”

    you must be talking about the cults that sprouted inside the Christian faith, such as born-agains or InC. are u aware that baptisms in lutheran or episcopalian or methodist or the uccp & many more are already accepted by the roman catholic church, and the other way around? this is because of the fundamental faith of the trinitarian God…

  39. sotirios permalink

    you guys make me laugh. How kong have you been TRUE athiests for? And when did you discover richard dawkins?

  40. sotirios permalink

    let me set you all straight, billions of people have died over the centuries and there have been no credible signs from these dead that there is in fact a heaven (well for chistians anyway). Face the fact; when you die you’re buried six feet under and become nothing but fertilzer for the grass above. LIVE a GOOD life, you’ll at least be remembered for that. Religion is for those who can’t accept the aforementioned, cowards at heart!

  41. ilaga! permalink

    nope, being born-again is a Christian(protestant) doctrine that’s exactly what “saved by grace” is all about, a biblical truth the catholics blindly reject. Baptism in the protestant churches is only an act of professing your faith in Christ to the world, kind of like washing away the old self to embrace a new fellowship with Christ, being born again so to speak, this comes after you have received the Lord JEsus CHrist as your personal saviour and Lord (see the sinner’s prayer). Baptism will not get you to heaven. I have never heard of protestants accepting catholic dogma for baptism, that is defeats why protestants are protestants in the first place.

  42. ilaga! permalink

    yes i respect that, but i abhor the practice of celebrating one’s freedom by bashing other people’s beliefs unnecessarily, has the protestant Christians wronged him (the author) in a personal level? did you know protestants by the Grace of God have the most humanitarian missions and the most active NGOs in the world? the red cross was founded by a protestant Christian, so is the world vision just to name a few. have we forgotten that if there was no reformation we would probably still be illiterate, if there was no Bible how would the developed countries pattern the foundation of morality and laws that govern our everyday lives? Sometimes our arrogance cripples the way we understand things, its not that we don’t know the answer or lack the ability to think, its just because we don’t. There are other means to express ones beliefs without disrespecting others, cheers.

  43. ilaga! permalink

    atheism has brought nothing but communism, nazism, and fascism among other things. secularism cannot produce ethics simply because it does not have a foundation. If one argues that the west leads the world simply because it was a “hotbed” for great thinkers, bear in mind that China, the middle east and india were far more advanced than all of europe during those times.

  44. prove that it does not have a foundation.

  45. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics#West_Point_honor_code

    Boy and Girl Scout laws
    The Boy Scout law holds that a Scout is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.[5]
    The Girl Scout law is as follows:
    I will do my best to be
    honest and fair,
    friendly and helpful,
    considerate and caring,
    courageous and strong, and
    responsible for what I say and do,
    and to
    respect myself and others,
    respect authority,
    use resources wisely,
    make the world a better place, and
    be a sister to every Girl Scout.[6]

    Naval Academy Honor Concept
    “Midshipmen are persons of integrity: They stand for that which is right.
    They tell the truth and ensure that the full truth is known. They do not lie.
    They embrace fairness in all actions. They ensure that work submitted as their own is their own, and that assistance received from any source is authorized and properly documented. They do not cheat.
    They respect the property of others and ensure that others are able to benefit from the use of their own property. They do not steal.”[7]

    Minnesota Principles
    The Minnesota Principles were proposed “by the Minnesota Center for Corporate Responsibility in 1992 as a guide to international business activities”:
    Proposition #1: Business activities must be characterized by fairness. We understand fairness to include equitable treatment and equality of opportunity for all participants in the marketplace
    Proposition #2: Business activities must be characterized by honesty. We understand honesty to include candor, truthfulness and promise-keeping.
    Proposition #3 Business activities must be characterized by respect for human dignity. We understand this to mean that business activities should show a special concern for the less powerful and the disadvantaged.
    Proposition #4 Business activities must be characterized by respect for the environment. We understand this to mean that business activities should promote sustainable development and prevent environmental degredation and waste of resources.[8]

    Rotary Four-Way Test
    This test is the “linchpin of Rotary International’s ethical practice.” It acts as a test of thoughts as well as actions. It asks, “Of the things we think, say, or do”:
    1. Is it the Truth?
    2. Is it FAIR to all concerned?
    3. Will it build GOODWILL and BETTER FRIENDSHIPS?
    4. Will it be BENEFICIAL to all concerned?[1]

    West Point honor code
    The West Point Honor Code states that “A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”[9]

  46. @Chino:
    Didn’t the Church render Freemasons anathema?

  47. Migs42 permalink

    @ilaga! China, Middle East and India were far more advanced because the Western Roman Empire fell and that’s what you call the dark ages. Dude… it’s just as simple as that. Despite popular belief, Europe (well, the eastern part) is still flourishing technologically because the Eastern Roman Empire still stands and on the western part however, the Church monopolizes thought and science. Any scientifical advancement that they don’t want will be regarded as heresy. That’s why many have commented that the Muslims were advanced compare to them when the crusaders went to the Holy Lands. Western Europe only catched up during Renaissance and that’s when non-Europeans starts to lag behind.

    Wanna know why Europe was a “hotbed” for great thinkers? Simple. Charles Darwin (Evolution), Adam Smith (Capitalism), Karl Marx (Socialism/Communism), Thomas Malthus (Malthusian thought), John Keynes (Keynesian economics). I can add MORE if you want. oh did I mentioned that they harness the power of steam?

  48. Buloy permalink

    I think all this nitpicking about what kind of doctrine is believed by what kind of Christian faith is the point Dawkins was trying to make in his video. Love the God you choose to believe in – or love life, and respect it, if you believe in no god – , and love your neighbor. These are the only two important tenets anyone ever needs to know.

    Religion has a penchant for controlling minute details no matter how trivial, as a means for churches to control their flock to some extent. The author does not bash Protestantism per se, but rather bashes the need for most religion to have to control such minute details of their congregation’s lives by instituting conventions and rituals, then threatening hell / excommunication / some other equivalent when these aren’t performed to their liking.

  49. palebluedot_ permalink

    nobody’s saying baptism will get one to heaven or to whatever delusional part in one’s imagination. my message above has to do with the common belief of roman catholic and other protestant denomination. roman catholics & those who protested the roman catholic rites (not faith) have the same belief in God, that is, a trinitarian God – “God the father, God the son, God the holy spirit”. however one professes such faith (through baptism, liturgical celebrations etc), i do not want to argue. they are the small things that when discussed creates war…

    personally, i find it appalling that we, who adapted the christian catholicism (roman rite) way of life, together with other large denominations of protestants are trying to promote ECUMENISM, while these small cults are trying to be divisive. fyi, gone were the days when the “only” chriistian denomination is catholicism (roman, byzantine, anglican, coptic rites etc) . RCC is now helping in promoting unity among different denominations & religions. there are series of interfaith dialogues being done for the purpose of cooperation & of supporting each others faith. in fact, if u check many dioceses esp here in mindanao, you will find muslims & protestants working inside the bishop’s office. and they are not just working, they are influencing the faith decisions of the bishop. moreover, they are never forced to join the liturgy or to convert to christianity. the point of ecumenism is RESPECT in each and everyone’s faith so that everyone can live peacefully. and that is what i personally hope to achieve as we analyze here the virus called faith.

  50. Mari permalink

    @ilaga! 

    The (Protestant) Reformation is essentially an internal Christian revolt against their fellow Christians in power (the CC). Many of the ideas of the Reformation were heavy influenced by  Humanistic Ideas which essentially originated from three distinct places: 1)  Ancient Greece (The philosophers), 2) Asia (Gautama Buddha and his ilk. Imagine the teachings of Love and compassion 600 years before Christ! ) and (gasp!) the Medieval Islamic world (Believe or not many Islamic thinkers perused ideas of individualism, liberalism and Critical thinking. Ever heard of a Mystic Islamic poet named Rumi?) . All non-Christian of Origin. 

    So sorry sir but the Christians did not invent the wheel so no. Essentially it was Humanism that brought us all the great progressive ideas and liberties that we enjoy today not Christianity. I can’t blame you though,  the Bible is not really a great source of accurate historical information.

  51. Mari permalink

    @ilaga! 

    The (Protestant) Reformation is essentially an internal Christian revolt against their fellow Christians in power (the CC). Many of the ideas of the Reformation were heavy influenced by  Humanistic Ideas which essentially originated from three distinct places: 1)  Ancient Greece (The philosophers), 2) Asia (Gautama Buddha and his ilk. Imagine the teachings of Love and compassion 600 years before Christ! ) and (gasp!) the Medieval Islamic world (Believe or not many Islamic thinkers perused ideas of individualism, liberalism and Critical thinking. Ever heard of a Mystic Islamic poet named Rumi?) . All non-Christian of Origin. 

    So sorry sir but the Christians did not invent the wheel so no. Essentially it was Humanism that brought us all the great progressive ideas and liberties that we enjoy today not Christianity. I can’t blame you though,  the Bible is not really a great source of accurate historical information.

  52. Mari permalink

    @ilaga! 

    Also Nazis were Christians not atheists. Yes their version of Christianity was very twisted but they were indeed Christians. In fact the Nazi government banned a lot of left wing ideologies like Communism. Hitler even claimed that he stamped out Atheism . In fact Nazi-Vatican Concordant  (yes Vatican, they had close ties with the Vatican then) of 1933 Hitler was very against secular schools.

  53. Mari permalink

    Thanks for the interesting link Palebluedot

    Someone from the comments section posted some quotes from Hitler professing his faith:

    For this, to be sure, from the child’s primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots:’Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea:’Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!”
    – Adolf Hitler’s prayer, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 Chapter 13 
    Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith …we need believing people.
    – Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant 
    We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
    – Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933 
    This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. The great masses of a nation are not composed of philosophers. For the masses of the people, especially faith is absolutely the only basis of a moral outlook on life. The various substitutes that have been offered have not shown any results that might warrant us in thinking that they might usefully replace the existing denominations….There may be a few hundreds of thousands of superior men who can live wisely and intelligently without depending on the general standards that prevail in everyday life, but the millions of others cannot do so.
    – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

  54. ilaga! permalink

    interesting, as all these institutions were from the states, a country of deeply puritan (protestant) traditions and  values. The baseline for western europes’ and the north america’s ethics has always been the Bible and the Christian God. What you have written above has Protestant Christianity all over it. The rotary club’s founder was a protestant Christian.
    sorry mate. (^^)

  55. ilaga! permalink

    India and the middle east were already ahead of rome even during its peak.  
    What i’m trying to point out to you guys here is that, protestant definition of Christianity is different from that of the catholics….
    The renaissance could not have happened without the reformation in the first place, so if there was no reformation, literature would not have been available to the masses = no renaissance, and everyone would probably be speaking arabic today.
    Charles Darwin, Karl Marx, Adam Smith, Malthus (all were brought up in Christian homes, by the way) keynes was a marxist as was karl marx, a really handy ideology, we do know how effective that is right? its not a dangerous at all. (^^)  

  56. ilaga! permalink

    Hitler was a devout catholic (but was never excommunicated by the RCC) used “christianity” to persuade others to follow him… nazism is an atheistic  ideology (national socialist party), so is marxism, maosim, and fascism, Hitler believed in aliens, a caucasian christ,  racism, superhuman mutants, and was reportedly homosexual. See how dangerous it is when you mix the cult that is catholicism and the blasphemous ideologies of atheism. (^^)

  57. ilaga! permalink

    >Buddhist teachings may seem inadequate/ fall short for a Protestant Christian since it does not preach about loving your enemies, accountability to a God, sacrificing one’s self for others, redemption and tons of other values that form the basis for N.America’s and Western Europe’s ethics, the very liberties that you enjoy today came from Christianity and not from buddhism or from the teachings of ancient philosophers, humanism and certainly not from communism. As i stated earlier atheism has no moral foundation, therefore it can>bear in mind that the philosophers’ theories have been proven by modern science to be false (aristotle- eternal universe, galileo- gravity etc…)> Humanism  is nothing if not for the reformation> The Bible talked about a “beginning”, evaporation, dinosaurs, astronomy, thermodynamics, oceanography, and much more scientific discoveries even circumcision centuries before the scientists came to the same conclusions  > the Bible said the world was round, but the scientists just recently discovered that the world is indeed round > Sir Isaac Newton, the father of modern science based his numerous scientific findings in the Bible.> I don’t know where you come from but the Bible is the most reliable historical document ever and the main source of historical information we have today. Archeology has verified its claims time and time again.as one Christian professor once stated, “atheism cannot give rational grounds for the justification of morality without invoking Christianity and its influence on society”Dostoyevsky said “if there was no God(or if there is no immorality), then everything is permissible”

  58. ilaga! permalink

    hmmn, i typed too quick there, forgot to review what i said LOL, my bad

  59. Miriam Quiamco permalink

    The fact still remains that the Christian world was the hottest bed of intellectualism ever in any human historical epoch, attribute it to the competition of powers between the Church and State, or whatever, nobody can deny that no other society produced such rigorous thought systems which define the modern world we live in, it may not be directly due to the doctrines of the Christian church, but the kind of society it spawned.

  60. palebluedot_ permalink

    @Mari
    you might also want to check the comments of this site: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/oct/11/indifference-church-best-hope.
    all so similar with what we have here…

  61. palebluedot_ permalink

    @ilaga
    i want to point out to you that Carlos Celdran’s Damaso, which started this query on our rationality/irrationality of faith, happened during an ecumenical mass celebrating the 2nd anniversary of the “May They Be One Bible campaign,” a joint effort by Catholics and Protestant leaders to distribute five million Bibles to five million poor Filipino families (inquirer). sa misang yun, di lamang catholic bishops, priests & faithfuls ang naka-witness sa thought provoking stunt ni David, ang mga protestante rin. kaya nga siguro nagalit yun mga katolikong opispo, napahiya sila sa harap nang counterparts nila LOL. anyways, you might want to update yourself on the progressive campaigns of the Christian churches & other religions in this country😉

  62. Mari permalink

    @Miriam

     It is the influence of the Humanistic philosophy that brought liberal ideas like freedom, compassion, equality for all and liberty not necessarily Christianity (though they did have their contribution no doubt). However, I would not be surprised if the historical Christ actually studied the teachings of the Greeks or Eastern Philosophers when he started preaching about love and compassion. Remember thinkers like the Buddha already had a complete philosophical system for love, compassion and forgiveness hundred of years before Christianity. All this I have mentioned in my previous post.

    How can you prove that the “competition between Church and State”  was actually beneficial to the progression of mankind? I say it is quite the opposite, let me give you three examples how Christianity retards progress:

    1) Galileo. Life time house arrest. The only time his views was accepted and pardoned by the Church was 1993!!! Thats a long time to change your mind.

    2) Evolution vs Creationism – this debate has gone on for decades since Darwin first released his theory. I won’t go into the details because it is a big can of worms but this debate has confused people especially schools on what version to teach as both sides of the debate lobbied and fought tooth and nail for their version of the truth to be taught in the classroom. Needless to say this was a waste of energy.

    3) The RH bill. The Catholic Church wants to save our souls but in order to do that they have to sacrifice the future progress of Filipino society.  The CC used its political clout to stop this bill and managed to delay this bill for many years. The result are dire consequences that we can easily see in the streets of every slum and informal settlers out there. 
     
    There are countless other examples. As you can see none of this so called “competition” does anything but to slow down meaningful progress for mankind. I’m afraid is what you are doing is confusing the baby with the dirty bath water. 

  63. Mari permalink

    Ah yes you have a good point – I concede on that. After further reading, Hitler was quoted pondering that it would have been better if he had used “stronger” religions such as Islam to “lead” the German people. However I still maintain that Hitler was a theist. In his speeches he mentioned his belief of a (not necessarily Christian) but a devine being.  

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views#cite_note-73

    Also the very fact that Atheist were persecuted in Nazi germany shows that they do not show the same belief system.   

  64. Ponse permalink

    ilaga!

    Can you quote where the Bible predicts things like dinosaurs? Physics?! Where in Bible that says the world was round?! I feel you are now mixing the findings of Science with your own personal biblical interpretations. At least back each of your statement with the proper Biblical quote/verse before I actually take you seriously. 

  65. God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn’t make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5

    God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8

    Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

    In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used “for signs”. This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read “the signs” in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

    “He made the stars also.” God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day’s work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

    “And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.” 1:17

    God commands us to “be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over … every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” 1:28

    “I have given you every herb … and every tree … for meat.”
    Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God’s advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God. 1:29

    “He rested.”
    Even God gets tired sometimes. 2:2

    “The tree of life … and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”
    God created two magic trees: the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. Eat from the the first, and you live forever (3:22); eat from the second and you’ll die the same day (2:17). (Or that’s what God said, anyway. Adam ate from the tree of knowledge and lived for another 930 years or so (5:5). But he never got a change to eat from the tree of life. God prevented him from eating from the tree of life before Adam could eat from the tree, become a god, and live forever.) 2:9

    God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. (Although he was tempted to go for the sheep.) After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20

    God’s clever, talking serpent. 3:1

    God walks and talks (to himself?) in the garden, and plays a little hide and seek with Adam and Eve. 3:8-11

    God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before — by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don’t eat dust, do they? 3:14

    God curses the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. 3:17-18

    God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve. 3:21

    “Behold, the man is become as one of us.”
    God expels Adam and Eve from the garden before they get a chance to eat from that other tree — the tree of life. God knows that if they do that, they well become “like one of us” and live forever. 3:22-24

    Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, “Every one who finds me shall slay me.” This is a strange concern since there were only two other humans alive at the time — his parents! 4:14

    “And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD.” 4:16

    “And Cain knew his wife.” That’s nice, but where the hell did she come from? 4:17

    Lamech kills a man and claims that since Cain’s murderer would be punished sevenfold, whoever murders him will be punished seventy-seven fold. That sounds fair. 4:23-24

  66. Mari permalink

    ilaga!

    I believe we are not debating the existence of a God/divine being/ ultimatesource but rather the EVILS OF TRADITIONAL RELIGION – so you are off topic on that one. Also, I agree with what the commentator above me who said, you should at least prove your assertions (cite a source) that these wonderful scientific discoveries such as thermodynamics and… um… dinosaurs are biblical in origin.

    ”Dostoyevsky said “if there was no God(or if there is no immorality), then everything is permissible”

    The nicest and most morally upstanding people I know are atheist and agnostics and non-christians. Like good Christians they help and do charity work for other people. What motivates them is not to please some invisible god but to simply help other because we all share a common humanity and understand each other’s suffering. Believe it or not, I have seen great goodness in action without the so called influence of religious beliefs.

  67. migs42 permalink

    uuhhmmm.. excuse me but Rome, at its peak, controls all the good stuff of middle east (Egypt, Jerusalem, Syria and Iraq) and the only contender against the Romans were the Seleucids and the Parthians and neither of them can surpass the Romans?

    India? In what aspect, please?

    LMAO! Renaissance already HAPPENED when the Reformation started. lol! The main contributors of the renaissance are the defeat of the crusaders, the sharing of knowledge in Christian and Muslim Spain, the fall of Constantinople and just plain old nostalgia about the life in the antiquity era. These events happened before Reformation.

    eerrrmmmm… no. No one will speak Arabic in Europe as far as I can see. The Moors were defeated in the battle of Tours. If you’re talking about cultural flips, Europe experience medieval age yet the countries still speak their respective tongues. People will only change language by NEED not by what is hip today. No. That idea of changing just because their neighbour’s culture is better just a load of bullshit. An example of “changing by need” is the Latin numerals. How come Europe is not using Latin numerals in everyday use? Because it’s impractical. Trying multiplying XVI and LVI, you’ll go bonkers. 

    “all were brought up in Christian homes” uuhhhh… what’s relevant about that, moron? They are Europeans and they are great thinkers therefore, Europe is a hotbed of thinkers. The Church got nothing to do with their ideas. They didn’t contribute anything direct to it. And it’s not about the effectiveness the counts, it’s the thought. Almost everyone thinks that Communist system is worthless but they still read Marx’s book. Capiche?

    Your argument is rubbish btw.

  68. ilaga! permalink

    that is your opinion.

  69. ilaga! permalink

    first off, if my argument is indeed rubbish as you say, why reply?lol
    China, India, and the Middle East are still superior in terms of science, literature and technology (even sterilization is alien to the west at those times).
    The reformation did not start with Luther and Calvin, but with the likes of John Wycliffe, you should consult with your history teacher if you still do not believe me. (^^)
    Europe is speaking arabic now, though not entirely, so your argument failed lol.
     I emphasized that they were brought up in Christian homes to show you they were not free of Christian influence, as what the atheists think they can achieve but never will. 
    There is no rational basis for ethics, nor for the justification of morality without God, and without Christianity, even dawkins admits that. (^^)
    I can’t believe that someone who fancies himself as an intellectual could actually tolerate communism and bash Christianity. God bless you sir.

  70. Ponse permalink

    @BongV

    All those quotes are all very loose biblical interpretations of scientific facts. I’m sure you are aware that all creation myths regardless the tradition is ancient man’s observation to make light of the natural world.  In the same line of thought I could grab any creation myth from any tradition and interpret that those stories represented scientific laws or phenomenon. For example I can juxtapose the ancient Creation myths and scientific facts based on interpretation.

    Greek Creation Myth:
    “In the beginning there was Chaos. The dark, silent abyss from which all things came into existence.  Chaos generated the solid mass of Earth, from which arose the starry, cloud-filled Heaven. Mother Earth and Father Heaven, personified respectively as Gaea [Gaia] and her offspring Uranus [Uranos], were the parents of the Titans.” (An ancient Greek may interpret this as the Big Bang Theory)

    In Nordic mythology:
    “Odin, the son of Bur’s son Borr, killed Ymir. The blood pouring out of the giant’s body killed all the frost giants Ymir had created, except Bergelmir. From Ymir’s dead body, Odin created the world. Ymir’s blood was the sea; his flesh, the earth; his skull, the sky; his bones, the mountains; his hair, the trees. ” (A Viking can claim this represents the geographical formation of the planet Earth)

    One of the Ancient Filipino creation myth says:
    “Thousands of years ago there was no land nor sun nor moon nor stars, and the world was only a great sea of water, above which stretched the sky. The water was the kingdom of the god Maguayan, and the sky was ruled by the great god Captan.” (This can be loosely interpreted by a believer as the Earth’s Archaean eon when the Earth was mostly oceans) 

    And we can go one and on so it is quite a slippery slope. I’m sure the Christians back then knew nothing about Photosynthesis by reading the Bible until it was discovered in the mid 1600 by Van Helmont. All the Christians at the time knew back then sun light helps plants to grow – something all humans already knew at the time Christian or not. Same line goes with many other scientific concepts like Physics, astronomy and evolution. Our current deep understanding of these concepts were not possible if not for the inquiry of science – not Biblical dogma. The last time Christians tried to base their understanding of the natural world ENTIRELY through the Bible were the middle ages and we all know how well that went. 

    Finally, it is indeed true that many of the concepts of the Greek Philosophers (Aristotle) were proven wrong much later but the question is who revised and corrected these views? It was the contemporaries of the Greek Philosophers – the scientists and thinkers of today not Christianity or the Catholic Church. In other words, Science continues to revise and correct itself in search for the truth unlike traditional religion that takes centuries to change their outdated and often concepts if ever at all. Notice that Christian Philosophers and so called Christian scientists spend too much time trying to defending and justify their belief system rather then forward it with new and progressive ideas.  
      

  71. Mari permalink

    ilaga! says:
    “that is your opinion.”

    It is an opinion that is not only backed with a source but also shared by World War II scholars. Read the wikipedia link I provided and the article’s bibliography. Its all there. 

  72. ilaga! permalink

    You ask me to prove my argument, but already label me as a lier? hmn.
    anyway.
    I am no Biblical scholar but this was taught to us back in high school,
    Sir Isaac Newton ( the father of modern science) – search him in your local library (i recommend) , or google him on how he came up with his dicoveries, and other Christian scientists too if you want.
    Dinosaurs- read the book of Job
    Evaporation- Job 36. Ecclesiastes 1,  
    the earth is round- Isaiah 40:22
    air has weight- job 28
    there was a beginning- Gen 1:1, 1 tim 1:9, etc…
    1st law of thermodynamics- gen 2:2-3, psa 148:6, heb 4, isa. 40: 26 etc…
    2nd law of thermodynamics- psalm 102: 25-26. isa 51:6, mat 24:35 etc…
    an expanding universe- Job 9:8, isa 40:22 etc…
    the recent discovery that the stars cannot be counted was already mentioned in the Bible-  Jer 33:22
    oceanography (current mapping)- psa 8:8, isa 43:16, ecc 1:6
    agriculture( resting the soil)- lev 25:4
    circumcision on the 8th day after delivery- Gen 17:12, it is only on the 8th day that prothombin(which is needed by the body to clot) reaches the right amount for a child to undergo a minor surgery. 
    the black plague (did you know? europe was saved from total annihilation through practicing Biblical principles regarding sterilization, since people during that time have no knowledge of microbes and proper hygiene ) – lev 13: 45-46, num 19: 11-12, deut 23:12-14
    sterilization- read leviticus
    regarding blood (early physicians think we have too much blood, which cause the death of pres. washington)- lev 17:13-14 etc…
    Take note that the above mentioned were realized by scientists just recently, centuries after they were written. 
    (^^) 

     

  73. ilaga! permalink

    i’m pretty sure there is more of it i just can’t find it now. 

  74. ilaga! permalink

    i’m not saying that athiests are not capable of doing good, of course they are, as a Christian (protestant) i firmly believe we are made in the image of God, therefore are capable of doing good, but does atheism give rational grounds for the justification of morality without Christianity, the answer is no. You cannot totally take away Christianity’s influence on society, it can never happen since Christianity helped shape the modern world. 
    “You cannot cross God out of the picture and think you could still retain human VALUE since atheism gives no grounds for morality, you and me are nothing more than an animals if we go by this atheistic ideology” ( as dr. john lennox once pointed out). Compassion, caring for the sick and various altruisms, human behavior of Christian origins is going against darwin’s “survival of the fittest” hypothesis.
    jurgen habermas, a renowned atheist one said, ” Christianity, and nothing else, is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the benchmarks of Western civilization. To this day, we have no other options. We continue to nourish ourselves from this source. Everything else is postmodern chatter.”
    Jesus HImself was against religion, one thing you have to understand about the protestant view of Christianity is that we do not consider it a religion in the first place but a relationship with JEsus CHrist, this is the only one truth and nothing else.  
    The world is rational you see, if it were not so the scientific laws would not be constant, and everything in existence could not have been done without a rational Creator, everything in this world is in order, nothing is out of place and it is just absurd to think that it came from random chaos. 

  75. ilaga! permalink

    notice that it was only he who professed to be a catholic, which is against NAZI atheistic ideology…
    and remember that Hitler stated that the japanese were part of the Nordic race, the japanese who defeated the russians….. hmmnn  i don’t know about you, but this tells me something very clearly about the world war.

  76. ilaga! permalink

    i happen to be reading this guy’s books he had numerous debates against dawkings and hitchins, and other atheists,
     here is probably a better answer than mine regarding Hitler’s “christianity”…

  77. ilaga! permalink

    “That which is called humanism, but what would be more correctly called irreligious anthropocentrism, cannot yield answers to the most essential questions of our life” — Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

  78. Manong Gard permalink

    Share ko lang: Pat Condell’s – The arrogance of Clergy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STlYN5KCiWg

  79. migs42 permalink

    @ilaga! yeah, you still haven’t explained the Roman middle east part. How can middle east better than Roman empire at its peak if most of it is under her control?

    John Wycliffe is the precursor of the Reformation. That’s correct but not the Renaissance. Renaissance happened because of the sharing of knowledge and the rediscovery of ancient knowledge. And you’re still wrong. You forgotten Industrial revolution. It made clear that no doubt Europe is leading and the others are lagging behind. I admire China and her advancements (Zheng He anyone?) but let’s not forget China (Yuan, to be exact. I think) is being biatchslap by Europeans. 

    “OMG! Ther r Muslimz in Europe lol! They can has speak Arabic lol” You know what I meant on my previous comment. Don’t steer away. People only change language by need. We’re using Hindu-Arabic numerals, just so you know, much better to make calculations than Roman numerals. That is need. How come Europe still using Latin and their local languages?

    Like I said before, the Church didn’t contribute anything DIRECT on their ideas. Influence shminfluence. Btw, the argument in this part is whether Europe is a “hotbed” of great thinkers or not. It seems you’re agreeing with me.

    *facepalm* Let’s see where we stand. I go first. You can worship God if you want, I don’t give a shite. Just don’t blend politics and religion. I’m not that too extreme where I want to eradicate religion completely. I like Marx as a thinker for inventing a “perfect” system (obviously, it didn’t worked well with reality but that’s not the point.), the main point is the thought itself. In case, you’re talking about politics. I don’t support the Communist bloc unless Realpolitik dictates to.

  80. the reason for stating that the middle east is better than the roman empire can be the following reasons:

    1 – a superior numerical system – the arabic / decimal sytem we now use today

    2 – algebra which is still being used today, was developed in the middle east

    3 – the spanish conjugations are actually middle east inspired – note the el and la of Spanish and the el and al of the Arabs..

    4 the Moors.. who occupied the Iberian peninsula for 800 years… – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

    5 – the caliphates patronage of the sciences, literature, and math –

    Arab-Islamic science

    Introduction

    Starting around 750 AD, science flourished under the Abbasid caliphs of Baghdad, gradually spreading its influence as far west as Spain and eastwards into Central Asia, over a period of more than 600 years.

    By drawing on a variety of texts – Greek, Indian and Persian – and translating them into Arabic, the early scholars accumulated the greatest body of scientific knowledge in the world … and built on it through their own discoveries.

    Often, there was a practical Islamic relevance. Astronomy could be used to work out the direction of prayer. Mathematics was needed for dividing property according to the Islamic law of inheritance.

    Although science flourished under Arab-Islamic patronage, by no means all the important figures in science were Muslims, or even Arabs.

    The common factor, however, was the Arabic language, which for a time became the international language of science. It was only later, in the 12th and 13th centuries, when the Arabic works began to be translated into Latin, that such knowledge passed to the west.

    http://www.al-bab.com/arab/science.htm#Pioneers

    http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/index.htm#scit

  81. migs42 permalink

    I see. But the thing is, that Middle East you just described is later than the Roman Empire at its peak. It’s understandable. Even an army equipped with Medieval Europe’s weapons and armour is far-superior compare to the equipments of a post-Marian-reform legion. It’s like comparing 21st century America to 19th century Britain.

    Since he was talking about Atheism, Fascism and Communism in the first place, the time bracket must be ranging from Industrial age to pre-WW2 and he’s telling us that China, Middle East and India is superior than Europe during that time. And also that Europe isn’t a “hotbed” of great thinkers. Yeah…. during the medieval age. : /

  82. migs – what can I say – the thread’s kinda labo labo… lol

  83. samantha permalink

    Hmmm …. everything here are speculations and confusing.  But, which one is has real theory of the truth?  Are we looking for an accurate knowledge of the truth?  Because I believe that … there is always one truth since the world exist  through the beginning of every civilization until this time … there is always one truth!  Anyone?

  84. blueredicedtea permalink

    one truth: we are (us and everything) destined to live and die
    LOL

  85. bill kasi permalink

    Hi Miriam Quiamco,
    In a chaotic world you needed to think more for your survival. In a complicated world you needed to challenge the status quo. That is why there are more thinkers in that world you mentioned. “Necessity is the mother of invention”, and the invention is critical thinking. But some creatures don’t even have brains for thinking, that is why their world is very chaotic. The Buddhist practice moderation so as not to complicate their world.

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